Chrissy 0:00
Welcome to The Dogs of our lives. Podcast with me. Chrissy Messick, this is where traditional training transforms into true connection and understanding with our dogs. As a certified dog trainer, behavior consultant and interspecies communicator with a background in high level sports medicine, I bring a unique functional approach to understanding our dogs by integrating body, mind, heart and soul, join us for insights, stories and practical wisdom that will help you prevent problems before they start and build a deeper bond with your animal companion. Before we get into today's episode, let me ask you a question, how well do you actually know your dog? Why not take my quiz to find out? You can find the link in the show notes. Now let's dig in. Today. I'm talking with Dr Ariel Fagan, who is a board certified veterinary behaviorist who owns and practices out of the veterinary behavior center that's based in Boulder, Colorado and Honolulu, Hawaii. Her name might sound familiar because it's been mentioned in a couple of our other podcast episodes with Dr Chris Pachell and Dr Stacy Jones, and so now you get to finally hear from her. Today, we discuss the difference between a regular veterinarian and a veterinary behaviorist, when to seek help from a veterinary behaviorist, some underlying issues that might be causing some unwanted behaviors, and one case, she specifically talks about ways to treat them and some other fascinating topics. I hope you learned something from today's episode, and reach out if you have any questions, thoughts or comments. Well, hello, Dr Fagen, and thank you for being on here with us.
Chrissy 1:31
Thank
Ariel 1:31
Thank you for having me.
Chrissy 1:34
I appreciate you taking the time so we are going to go quickly, because I know you are super busy. The information you have to share is super important, so I want to get this out there, and I appreciate you taking the time to do this. Well, I'm happy to be here. Well, we know each other just from working together with clients and team dog. You know, so many dogs need, need a huge support system, and it takes a team. And so we work together with many dogs. And so can you just tell us a little bit about yourself, where you live, what you do, and the dogs in your life? Sure,
Ariel 2:10
I am a board certified veterinary behaviorist. I run the veterinary behavior Center, which is based in Boulder, Colorado, and then we also have a satellite location in Honolulu, Hawaii. I am fortunate enough to be in your area, and so I am able to collaborate with you and many other local trainers on cases. We have trainers on our team as well, and so we'll work sometimes with them on cases or with external trainers. I don't actually have any personal dogs in my life right now, if you can believe that or not, I have a lot of tiny humans, and that's enough work for me.
Chrissy 2:52
Yes, it's a it's a lot of work you have. How many you have twins and then another. How old are your kids? I've
Ariel 2:58
got a five year old, almost six year old, and twin one and a half year old.
Chrissy 3:03
Yes, so you're just right in the thick of it right
Ariel 3:06
now. Yeah, it's enough.
Chrissy 3:10
Okay, so can you tell us a little bit about your journey of becoming a veterinary behaviorist, and kind of why you decided to do that. Let's start with that. Sure.
Ariel 3:18
So I always was really interested in biology, like that field was always very interesting to me. And then in college, I studied comparative cognition, which is essentially this made up, choose your own adventure major that I was able to do at my university, that kind of combined biology, psychology, anthropology, and I basically just took classes in chimpanzee cognition the entire time, which was awesome. And I thought I was going to go into research, and then I just realized that I wanted to do something applied and not really live grant to grant that just wasn't going to work for me in my life. And so I decided on vet school. And then when I got to vet school, I was lucky enough to be at Tufts University, which had Dr Nicholas Todman, who was one of the grandfathers, really a veterinary behavior and he was still on staff at the time there. And so within a couple weeks, I met him, and it was veterinary behavior all the way from there after vet school to become a board certified veterinary behaviorist. You either do a one year internship or the equivalent, in general practice, I did an internship at wheat Ridge Animal Hospital, and that was a small animal internship, dogs and cats rotating through all the different specialties, so cardiology and internal medicine and emergency medicine and all the things. And then after that, I went on and did the veterinary behavior residency, which is a minimum of a three year program. I did one in private practice instead of at the university. Then got bored to. Certified, and here I am.
Chrissy 5:03
Thank you for doing that and all the animals. Thank you too.
Ariel 5:09
Well, I'm, I am happy to have completed the educational journey and now be a working professional.
Chrissy 5:17
Now you're putting it into practice. And I mean, you've been doing that the whole time, but I think a combination of education and practical experience is just huge. So can you tell people the difference between a DVM and then a veterinary behaviorist?
Ariel 5:33
Yeah, so the veterinary behaviorist is a board certification, so not dissimilar to in human medicine, people can go on after school to do these internships and residencies. In human medicine, my understanding is that they don't call the internship year. It's really just your first year of residency, whereas in veterinary medicine, they're actually separate programs. There's an internship, sometimes even a specialty internship, and then a residency. And typically that residency, most residencies are a three year residency program, and so once you complete the internship and residency after regular school, then you're you can sit the boards and get that additional certification. There are other requirements as well. So you know, as part of the residency, you have to have a certain number of cases and certain number of hours in case time, as well as case reports and a publication. So you have to do research. And then the board exam, which requires basically reading 27 textbooks and a ton of different papers, and it's a two day long exam, and so completion of that process gives you the DA CBB credentials, diplomat of the American College of Veterinary behavior credentials, and that program is specifically focused on behavior, psychiatry and everything that goes into that minimum, basically,
Ariel 6:59
of four years of education, plus passing the exam after you were in the DVM or the VMD, which is, are the veterinary degrees when you went through just regular veterinary school? How much education did you get on behavior?
Ariel 7:14
Well, I was lucky enough to go to Tufts, like I said, who had Dr Dodman, and so there was a actual behavior class, which I believe was a three or four week class. It was a small critic class, but everyone took, and everyone was required to take, which is not the case in all vet schools. So many vet schools don't have veterinary behaviorists on staff, and plenty some will bring veterinary behaviorists in to kind of do a quick rundown, but some don't even have the capacity do that right now. And then, I was able to do rotations once I hit my clinical segment in veterinary behavior. So I was able to do that at both at my home institution as well as I did out rotations at other institutions as well. But that's because I took a personal interest in it and chose to do that. And so it really varies. Some veterinarians are getting a decent education and behavior in vet school, and there are some that get absolutely none. So that really depends on where they attend school.
Chrissy 8:14
Yeah, that's super interesting. I know Dr Pachel, he go. He was just at CSU recently teaching the students up there on behavior. So that's super important.
Ariel 8:25
Oh my gosh, yeah. I mean, it's kind of a problem that not everyone gets kind of the same level of education. I mean, certainly everyone gets access to a lot of the other specialties. Behavior world is a newer specialty on the spectrum of things, and there is certainly a preconceived notion that it is doesn't generate very well from a financial perspective. So schools maintaining the department, it can be challenging to get them on board. That is problem. Luckily, there is education available to veterinarians that they can choose to pursue after they become a vet and in the form of continuing education, but they do need to take the initiative to go out and do that.
Chrissy 9:10
Yeah, yeah. So you have the veterinary behavior center here, yeah? Which is how, which is how I know you, and then you recently just opened one in Hawaii, right? Yes. Why Hawaii? Besides the obvious, who doesn't want to be in Hawaii?
Ariel 9:29
Yeah. So Hawaii hasn't had any resident veterinary behaviorists yet at all. They are, unfortunately, they don't have as much access to specialists out there, as we do on the mainland, they still don't have a dermatologist. They kind of just got some of the specialties within the past five years or so. And so it is a new and growing area for specialty medicine in general. And I happen to have a veterinary friend who has a clinic out there, and she. That invited us basically to take up shop out of their practice, so I didn't have to, okay, you know, deal with getting a whole new building and all that kind of thing. So, yeah, so we are thrilled to be kind of growing a little tiny veterinary behavior force out there, and finally getting access to those folks who haven't had access the way that we have on the mainland, and certainly there are places here too that don't have access. I mean, there's plenty of states that don't have veterinary behaviors, and people have to travel far in order to get to them. There's a dearth of us around the country, that is for sure.
Speaker 1 10:41
Okay, so if someone were to come in to the veterinary behavior center versus just a regular Veterinary Clinic, what is the difference right away that they would notice, like how the intake works?
Ariel 10:56
Oh yeah, our practice. Every practice is set up differently. Of course, our practice is set up in a completely different structure in order to support behavior cases. So our first appointment is always a virtual appointment, only with the Guardians the pet doesn't need to be there, and that is a with a technician and really a history taking appointment. We're really trying to figure out the nitty gritties of exactly what's going on at home, what the clients are concerned about, what's been tried before, and kind of get clients started on the right foot from a management perspective, because there's usually some simple things we can do that can make a big difference, or some pieces of education we can hand out to clients that can get them thinking and observing in specific ways that can be super helpful for when they meet the doctor. Additionally, there's often videos that they can collect at home that can be really helpful from a diagnostic perspective. And so we'll kind of tee up what videos need to be collected so that they're ready for the doctor, and then when they come in for an appointment with us, it's a longer appointment, so that's a one hour appointment, and then they come in with the doctor, it's another hour for the psychiatry evaluation. And in that appointment, we have all the history. May have gotten a little bit of more between the appointments based off of what they were collected and were able to really dive into the medical part. And we'll review their primary care medical records before they come in, and we are doing physical exams on them, and we're doing potentially some diagnostics on them, and so we're able to really dive into what medical pieces may be contributing to what's going on, or what we might need to rule out, and certainly setting us up so we can have a fuller psychiatry plan, if that is what is warranted for the pet, and that we can do that safely. And then going forward, I mean, we will really hand hold, to some extent, clients through the process. We don't just prescribe a drug and then let them run free and not see them again for six months. That's not how we work.
Ariel 13:03
So we have a team of veterinarians as well as Behavior Therapy technicians, which are very skilled trainers that have been kind of trained up to what we as doctors need them to be doing. And so we typically, if they don't have a already skilled trainer, we'll have them meet with our team working on behavioral therapies in between appointments with the doctors, and then doctors will continue to have appointments with them on an as needed basis, depending on the individual case. Sometimes we see them one to two weeks later, and sometimes we see them four weeks later, and sometimes eight weeks later. It totally depends on the individual case, and we can do both virtual and in person appointments to support that part of the plan, depending on what the patient needs and what the client needs and where they live, too, right? Because we certainly have some clients coming in from far away in our Colorado practice, we have clients driving in from Wyoming. We have a client in Minnesota. We have clients in Arizona, and so obviously they need a little bit more virtual support. And certainly our Hawaii clientele, because we are essentially going out there once a quarter to meet our patients. We're managing them virtually in between the balance of the behavioral therapies on a more regular basis, on, you know, a weekly basis, typically, and then meeting with the doctor kind of on the as needed plan to move them forward. That kind of combination can gets clients a lot more support, as opposed to a primary care practice where, typically it's just a half hour appointment, right off the bat, if they're lucky. I mean, there are plenty of clinics that only have 15 minute appointments or 20 minute appointments, and it's just impossible, really, to ask a veterinarian to get the level of information that they need in that type of structure, and then getting the kind of the frequency of support with the skill level of the behavior therapy team as. Well, primary care practices are not set up to be able to manage a psychiatry patient with that level of support, so that's how we do it. In our practice, there are other veterinary behaviorists that have different models. We're lucky enough to have a great team and live in a great area that has a ton of really skilled trainers around that can be part of that village. And additionally, our veterinary primary care veterinary community is also super skilled around here, and so we're able to kind of work with them in partnership if there's additional medical pieces that either we can't or don't manage in our physical practice, and we can send them back to their primary care vets to to work on those pieces. Yeah,
Chrissy 15:43
I wanted to emphasize the part where you talked about videos and stuff like that, because I have found with so many of my clients, you know, have your take your dog in to see the vet. I think there's some, you know, pain issue going on, and then they go in and it can't be replicated. Yeah, and, and, and so what we end up having to do is because the dog is so stressed out and nervous that they just like, are so good at hiding their pain and that they don't show it, and so the veterinarian can't find it. And so when you talk about doing videos, you know, getting videos of the dog's gate and what they are in, like a normal, safe environment, is such a good way to get real, real good information. And I do a lot of that with my clients, getting videos absolutely
Ariel 16:32
and I mean, there are specialists. There's like the rehab specialty. And in veterinary medicine, the surgeons are like kind of the orthopedic captains of the world, and so they have additional training as well, but our team has really taken a concerted effort. We've done a lot of continuing education to be very skilled at picking up on pain conditions in our exam rooms, because so many of our patients are struggling with occult orthopedic conditions that are under diagnosed. We also see a ton of Gi disorders that might be mild enough that they're just kind of sliding along, or it's bubbling along, but they're not so significant that, you know, they're not having blowout diarrhea every day, and they're already in intensive treatment with a internal medicine specialist, although some are, but many, many, many of them have kind of an underlying low level chronic gi issue that has been sliding under the radar. Sometimes our medications will almost reveal them that they're kind of on this tipping point and they're just hanging on this tipping point, and then use of, you know, our medications can just show us that it's actually been there the whole time. And additionally, we see a ton of dermatology situations as well. And so we're working closely with dermatologists to make sure that itchy conditions are taken care of, because essentially, anything that can cause pain or discomfort in an animal can worsen an underlying behavior problem. Sometimes it is the primary source of an underlying behavior problem, but often it's not the primary source and a contributor and making it worse. And that isn't limited to dermatology, GI or orthopedic those are just the three areas where we see kind of under recognized issues going on that are contributing most commonly. We absolutely can have neurologic conditions that can present as a behavior problem. We have other internal medicine conditions, so hormonal conditions, for example, can present as behavior problems. And so it really is across the spectrum, and it's our job to try and sort that out. Yep.
Speaker 1 18:48
So let's go back a little bit in time to your childhood growing up. Is there anything that you learned, like values, beliefs, or how they shaped your thoughts, feelings and attitudes towards animals or and has that changed over the years?
Chrissy 19:01
Yeah,
Ariel 19:01
Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. So I did have a different menagerie of pets when I was growing up. I had turtles, we had gerbils, we had guinea pigs and we had dogs growing up, and certainly my parents instilled in me the like commitment to care, right? My guinea pig got sick at one point, and we went to our local major hospital at the time that had an exotics department, and at least they led me to believe that they had overnight hospitalized the guinea pig for treatment. It may or may not have passed away in the middle of the night. You know, still unclear, and I certainly have not asked those follow up questions, but I was informed that that bed was was hospitalized, and so I was taught to have a, you know, a strong commitment at the same time we when we were kids, my we had a dog at his name was panda. At that time.
Speaker 1 21:51
This common thing about Yes, about my guests that I interview, it's interesting,
Ariel 21:58
yes, daughter of a human therapist. And so there was just a lot of awareness around mental health in the home. My older sister ended up becoming a child psychologist. So clearly there was an influence there. Yeah, and so that for sure, affected my interest in supporting the mental well being of critters around me. I think probably you know what, where the childhood roots are.
Chrissy 22:26
Yeah, that definitely makes sense. And it always seems people always go back to between when they're like, eight and 12. It's really interesting.
Ariel 22:33
Yeah, I mean, I was seven, I guess when they re homed Panda, because that's when my sister was born, and then we had the guinea pigs after that.
Chrissy 22:42
So So have there been any dogs in your life? Personally, I know you talked about panda but, but even professionally, that have changed your approach to worker life that really significantly impacted you, either personally or professionally?
Ariel 23:00
Sure. So I as an adult, my first dog that I owned was Libby, and I adopted her, like a week before vet school started. So she was, she was a flat coated retriever that had been found someone had tied her up outside of the spay neuter van that was affiliated with my vet clinic that I was working with at the time, and just left her there in the Bronx. So they brought her, obviously, they weren't going to leave her, and so they brought her, and she lived at the vet clinic I was working at for about eight months, probably, but I was working there for six months with her, and I've I fell in love with her. Everyone fell in love with her, but it wasn't really the best place for a dog to live, and she had some fear based behaviors towards unfamiliar people. And when I went off to vet school, I was leaving New York City, I was going up to the countryside, and her stress level around people that were, you know, pet parents that were visiting the clinic with their pets had started to increase at that point, and it wasn't a healthy place for her to be living anymore. She needed a real home, and so I took her with me, and so got her out of the city, and she taught me so much. I loved that dog so dearly, and I did a lot of things wrong in the beginning and a lot of things right. I stumbled into doing a lot of things right, but it certainly influenced, you know, I know what it's like to live with a pet that has fear induced aggression towards unfamiliar people. I mean, at this point in my career, if I had just gotten her, I absolutely would have initiated a psychiatry plan, but at the time, I didn't know enough, and I also had this space given in that I was in a rural area and kind of surrounded by other veterinary students that I was able to kind of get away without that then, but she probably would have lived a happier life with it, but I developed a huge compassion for dogs that struggle with this stuff and for their people, because it was hard for me to manage sometimes, and we were able to get her, with our naivety in vet school, you know, we were able to get her to a place where she really loved a lot of new people. There were still certain people that were still challenging for her, but we never had any bite issues or anything like that. We made a lot of progress with her over her lifetime, and she ended up gaining a lot of self confidence, and it was wonderful to watch even doing silly things, like we used to like, take her to kids playgrounds when, you know, after hours when there weren't any kids around, and basically do confidence building, work on the slides, and, you know, that kind of stuff. And she made, she went across the country twice with us on road trips. And, you know, she, I can't tell you how many states that girl got to hike in. I mean, she was really lucky, and we loved her dearly. And then she passed away when she was only seven and a half from cancer, yeah, and that was heartbreaking. So she absolutely was formative for me. And then there's certainly cases where I've been working with the family for years, or they were profoundly affected when they came into me, and I caught to see kind of the power of a committed and strong plan and how much it can really change people's lives. And that's lives. And so there's been a handful of those over the years, and every case that shows up, really, there's a different you know, the families are different, the situation is different, the needs are different, the capacities are different, and so there is power in all of them. Every case that we're able to successfully treat, which is most of them, is, you know, really reinforcing and and special to be a part of that journey for them.
Chrissy 26:56
Yeah, that's awesome. So can you tell us a little bit about the typical client that you see in your clinic, and when I say typical so when they've gone to their regular veterinarian and they get to you what what type of client is that like? And how do they know when to go to you at what point?
Ariel 27:14
Well, I think it varies. I mean, a lot of people are sent over to us by their primary care veterinarians or by if they are working with a skilled trainer, and the trainer is able to identify that either the case is not going the way it should, or this is much more severe and really needs additional support, that there's a quality of life issue. So most clients, I would say, are referred to as via trainers or their primary care beds, but some just find us they're looking and I guess Google SEO, I don't know. And so we do see a big variety. I mean, certainly all ages, all breeds. We see cats, and we see dogs, more dogs than cats. We are trained to see other species as well. And I've certainly seen a handful of them in my career, but they just come to us less frequently. And they can be anywhere from kind of a, you know, manners, poor manners, not sure if it's really a true problem or not, to all the way to like, severely pathologic in cases, both with medical conditions as well as behavioral which is a medical condition in the end, but like really quite profound psychiatric disturbance, really, every once in a while, we'll get referrals from the court system. If there's a dangerous dog violation or an animal at large situation, they'll come through to us as well. And then we also sometimes don't necessarily see them directly, but we'll just work with a primary care veterinarian so either they're too far away or there's financial barriers for them coming in, and so then we consult with the primary care veterinarian to support that case.
Chrissy 28:57
I'm curious how many puppies do you work with not related to normal puppy behavior, but there are puppies out there that are that can show abnormal behaviors. It's not too young to get them in to see you.
Ariel 29:13
Oh, yeah. So it's exceptionally rare for us to see a pet that is 12 weeks and younger. That's very uncommon, and maybe that's because most of those puppies are either still with their breeders or still, you know, with the mama dog, and they just haven't found their new permanent forever home yet. And so the problem might not be recognized starting around four months is when we'll start to get clients bringing their dogs and saying something is definitely different with this one, and then it really ticks up. Certainly there's a little bump seven months, eight months, nine months, when we're starting to enter kind of teenage hood, if you will. And things can start to feel a little more out of control. But then the real bump happens, like around one and a half, one Years old, one and a half when we start get going through a social maturation process and behavior issues that previously were either perceived as more mild or more restrained, then kind of blossom into their fuller form as the as the pet becomes a mature adult. No age is too young. I mean, the earlier we can see them honestly, the better, because we have more of an opportunity to make a profound impact. Their brains are so plastic when they're younger that like we can really do quite a bit if we can get in there. Usually the ones that end up in our door are the ones that are genetically or from a early rearing perspective, or from an in utero perspective set up to really be obviously problematic at a young age. But we wish that a lot, I mean, a lot of the patients that we do see that present older. They had signs when they were younger, they just were either mild enough or ignorable enough or, yeah, under recognized enough that they didn't get support.
Chrissy 31:08
Then so Right, right. Can you tell our audience about some underlying or surprising factors that might be causing some behavior issues? I know you touched on this a little bit, but, but something that they might not think of
Ariel 31:21
Sure. I mean, I think people, some people, understand that there's kind of the anything that causes pain or discomfort, bit can contribute, but the prevalence, I think, is really under recognized, and kind of things that you wouldn't necessarily expect, like we've had pets that went in for a routine dental and then they come out and, holy smokes, they had significant dental pain, and we, we had no idea, and now they're able to function better in life. They're just a lot less irritable because it doesn't hurt as much, and their bandwidth is higher, basically. And so there's definitely those pieces. And then there's definitely pieces that are maybe a little more obvious, but under like, no one knows what to do with it. So like, aggression with handling, for example, is a common issue. And then we dive deeper and we're like, oh yeah, maybe it's related to their hip pain that we maybe knew they had hip pain, but it we were, we didn't make that connection, that those two pieces, you know, that this happening in the home environment was related to that. So when we make those connections, that can be really helpful, because then we can we know what to do about it. And certainly we'll find things that, you know, like hormonal conditions that were pretty subtle, and clients had no idea that was going on, and they're there. So there's the medical pieces and then unexpected. You know, sometimes the medical problems that present as behavior problems, like persistently eating foreign bodies, for example, yes, can actually be a GI disorder or excessive licking of couches or people or clothing or carpets, that can be a GI disorder, right? And so we would never know that that may represent, say, nausea, if we hadn't kind of looked into it and figured it out. But we got to do some testing to see if, in that case, is that really nausea, not a behavior issue. And so those types of things can be more unexpected, yeah, and I think it's super important, you know, just to look beyond the behavior, like exactly what you guys are doing, look for any underlying pain. Is there GI issues? Is there quote, unquote, silent pain. That's not necessarily joint issue, but it's a fascia or musculoskeletal issue that the dog is showing exactly no symptoms and no indicators that they are in pain.
Chrissy 33:54
They can't tell us, right? Yeah, knowing that, you see some more of the difficult cases, and you've touched on this already a little bit. But what tools do you implement with these clients, and, you know, talking about medications, or, you know, rehab or nutrition? Can you talk a little more about that? What does that look like?
Ariel 34:15
Sure. I mean, we use all of those tools. We don't always necessarily implement them ourselves, like rehab, for example, is its own certification. It's its own specialty. And so we'll partner with rehab specialists if we think that a pet needs to be evaluated by them or supported by them, and we have a ton of patients that are and so they'll go to those practitioners in addition to us, in order to get that level of support on those pieces, there are veterinary nutritionists, for example, that we can refer to some things we're able to do on our own without, like resorting to another specialist, because they're kind of low hanging fruit, enough that we can manage it on our own, and it can make a big difference. And so there's, you know, a whole host of various treatments that are kind of in the veterinary world, the kind of more classic veterinary world that a primary care practitioner would have access to as well. Then on, the more veterinary psychiatry, or more veterinary behavior specific. So there's the behavioral therapies, which are pieces that a primary care practitioner or other specialist will not be trained in. They won't know that stuff, and they they shouldn't be expected to. And so that piece we work intensively on, kind of complicated behavioral therapy plans. We do a lot of education about, you know, how to read a dog or cat's body language, or what is normal look like, and what does normal not look like? And those, those are pieces that you know, skilled trainers certainly are going to be educating their clients on as well. And there are other ways to get access that information. And then from a psychiatry piece, there is nutraceuticals, right? There's some that we know the research on some and some of it is been shown to not really be effective, at least according to scientific standards. And then pheromone therapies will implement. And then, of course, Western medicine psychiatry, is very similar. We use the same drugs that they use in people medicine as well. They use more in people medicine, and they have different diagnoses than we do, but the ones that we use are also human great products. There are some veterinary branded, specific products as well that have been studied for specific conditions. And are, you know, a beef flavored chew tab or whatever, to make it go down easier. And so we use all those tools. Frankly, I think it is the kind of giant toolbox that we do have access to that is what makes us able to make a dent on some of these cases, and be able to look at it through such a holistic perspective, and get at it from all these different angles, is enables us to have kind of the power in the cases that maybe one methodology had been tried and just on its own was insufficient, and we really need this energy of all of it together to make an impact, right?
Chrissy 37:18
Yeah, super important. You know, I have kind of, like you said, that holistic approach, looking at all everything through that, you know, different lenses, and having a team, you know, working together as a team, super important when you're helping, you know, these families and dogs and cats and stuff. What do you consider success to be? And I know you look at like the humans goals, you know, as that measure of success. But I guess the point that I want to get across is it's not a quick fix. You can't say, you know, we're going to help you guys and your dog's going to be great in two weeks. No. So what do you consider success to be
Ariel 38:01
just like in human therapy, like pets, need time to learn new coping strategies and new ways of thinking and to be, you know, brave and at times when previously they were scared. I mean, that's a process, right? And so we prep clients that it's going to be months right of behavioral therapies, for some of our therapies to work. Now that being said, there are some quick adjustments that we can make to either lifestyle or communication style that can make a profound difference in everyone's stress levels. From a medication perspective and a supplement perspective, most of ours take months for us to know what's going to work right. Some of them literally have a loading time that takes months, and sometimes it's just a process, just like it is in human psychiatry, to figure out what medication is, the correct medication for that brain match, and what's the right dose or what combo is needed. And so that take time as well. So we prep clients that you know to do this process. And to do this process well, you're going to be in it for at least four to six months, if not longer. There are patients where it does take longer, and so clients should know that going in. That being said, there are things that we can do to have rapid impact for more immediate relief, we do a fast acting medications, and like I said, there are some management and lifestyle changes we can make that can alleviate suffering and decrease everyone's stress levels quite significantly in a short period of time.
Chrissy 39:40
So I just wanted to talk about something real quick that just really hurts my heart. So when a dog is struggling by either, you know, showing unwanted or even unsafe behaviors, and a person uses aversive tools or training, yeah, so when, in reality, the dog has some issue, and underlying issue that is causing them discomfort. They're trying to communicate this by their behaviors. Yeah, and so it's upsetting to see a dog that is struggling, and then they're getting punished even more for trying to communicate that. How do you address this? And do you see this a lot? And what are your thoughts on this?
Ariel 40:18
The prevalence of punishment based training methodologies actually varies a lot by region. So I was trained in Massachusetts, in Colorado and in Florida, and now we have clients from multiple different states, and then we're practicing in Hawaii now, which is very different than Colorado in terms of the kind of skill set and knowledge base of the local trainer. So in the front range of Colorado, we're very lucky that there's a huge, huge, like amazing array of positive reinforcement based trainers here that don't use punishment, heavily used punishment based methodologies. And so many of the clients we come into our that come into our Colorado practice already have dispelled of the previous punishment based training, or, you know, have heard the conflict around it and are curious about it when they come in. And so those conversations with those clients, when we explain the science behind them, and we explain the risk behind using those methodologies, are so happy that they have found someone who can explain the science, and are happy to get rid of any punishment based training that they were using. That is, honestly, that is the vast majority of our My experience is that when we do explain the science, even with those clients that are more heavily invested in using punishment based training when we explain the science bind it, a lot of them are really relieved that they don't have to use techniques that, frankly, they were a little uncomfortable with using in the first place, and so that is great, right? Every once in a while, we'll have a client that is more resistant, and either that's because there's a perceived safety in using punishment based methodology, say, you know, really common one is walking tools, and they are have a dog that might be lunging or barking on leash, and they are concerned about getting pulled over, the dog getting pulled out of their hand or something like that, and the prong collar makes them feel more secure because they see less of the lunging behavior. With the prong collar, they feel like they have more control. And that a we don't want dogs getting away from their people when they're not intending them to right. That is important right from a safety perspective too. And we need clients to feel safe and secure. And I have had clients that were pulled over by their big dogs, and that's not okay either, because they need to be safe as well. So you know, safety is of utmost priority when we're dealing especially with the larger dogs that are powerful, and so getting clients switched from tools that may have a punishment based component to them onto other tools in a safe way, can be sometimes a process, and so sometimes that involves teaching the animal to tolerate other tools, for example, or teaching the client how to implement good walking skills so that they can safely switch to other tools. So, you know, usually it's a learning curve to some extent, and it's about replacing what they're comfortable with or have used in the past with something that is as efficacious or more efficacious. You know, over time, how quickly that transition happens will depend a lot on a How much is that punishment based tool or punish punishment based methodology contributing to the problem? Right? So sometimes we have clients doing things that are actively worsening or or are at increased risk of worsening a behavior problem, and so those we have to more urgently get them doing something else, because they could be inadvertently making the problem worse. Other times, punishment tools are being utilized, but they're not directly, really correlated with the actual behavior problem at hand, and they may be contributing to kind of general stress levels of the pet, which of course, doesn't make them more able to handle life when they're faced with something they're concerned about, but it's not really the direct problem. And so for those patients, we may have more time right to transition them, to get them off and get the clients focusing on we are very particular about focus on what is actually causing the biggest quality of life issue for both the pet and the pet parent, and not just harping on while we shouldn't be using a choke chain, even though the problem is separation anxiety, when, when you know the dog doesn't happen, to say.
Ariel 45:00
Single issue on locks and they're not pulling and it's not really causing an issue. And so we really try and focus on a practical approach that's not based just off of, you know, ideology, but is really about what is the behavioral medical risk right now, right? And
Chrissy 45:18
I think a important piece too, that is brought up a lot is someone might say, Well, I tried the quote, unquote positive reinforcement, and it didn't work. And I think the key two words that you keep using are a skilled trainer.
Ariel 45:39
You know there. I mean, just like any in any profession, they're skilled and unskilled, you know, people. But I think if someone is, you know, looking to use positive reinforcement, force free type stuff, make sure they are working with someone that is skilled, yeah, and to be honest, I mean, there's absolutely a skill level difference that can make a huge difference. And there are pets that learn. I mean, dogs learn in different ways, right? Like some dogs need fast reps, some dogs need slow reps. Some dogs, you know, have to have a certain type of reinforcer. It's not going to work, right? Sometimes we've tried, quote, unquote, positive reinforcement. And really, what we you were using as our reinforcer, the human thought was of high value, but the dog didn't, right? I've had dogs that will only train for pasta. Like, screw all the dog treats. They just want pasta. I've had dogs that will only train for watermelon, right? Like, you know, these are things that we wouldn't necessarily think of, but are pretty important for us to figure out. Additionally, there are some pets that are too stressed to learn, right? And that is why they didn't respond to treatment before. Because when you're constantly having a panic attack, right, learning and retaining anything is impossible, and so sometimes we really have to do a bit of a neuro chemical adjustment first before we're going to be able to make an impact with any of our training. Because, you know, it's impossible to learn when you have a gun against your head. And some of these dogs feel like they have a gun against their head all the time, that I think is kind of under recognized part. And of course, I do see the more severe cases, typically. But if a dog hasn't responded to positive reinforcement, the question is, why not? Whether positive reinforcement can work. It can work. It works in every species. It works in humans. It works in Goldfish. It works in elephants, like why in the world would it not work with your dog, and the answer is, Well, why didn't it work with your dog, right? And that's what we need to dive dive into,
Chrissy 47:49
yeah, why? Why? Why be like your twins and always ask, Why? Why? Why? Y
Chrissy 47:54
ou know they don't know the word. Why? Yet, it's coming real soon. It's they know No, they're good at No We haven't gone to why? Oh, but yeah. But a skilled trainer will know to ask that and say, Okay, this motivator is not reinforcing for the dog. Let's try something else. Let's find you know what mode, what is motivating for the dog?
Chrissy 48:20
And I like, I have a client who had no learning history. The dog had no learning history, and so we get her at like, four months. My client gets her at four months, and she, you know, she knows how to play really well with other dogs, like she, which is, so I'm like, yay. You have a pro social dog, you know, but she doesn't know how to do normal behavior cues like sit or down or anything like that. And so she had to build up a learning history and then finding out that treats are huge motivators at home, but when she goes to do agility, forget the treats like that's not motivating at all, but toys are super motivating.
Ariel 49:01
Totally, totally and sometimes it's, you know, grooming, sometimes it's the presence of their person. Sometimes we use running a lot as a reinforcer, especially for the ones that can't eat. Dogs love dogs love to run, especially when they're worried right. Running away from the trigger is a really great reinforcer for some of them. So there's all sorts of ways to get creative. You know, there's that perceived dependence on cookies, and they'll only do it if there's a cookie. And if that's what the experience is, it's because the training was not at a high enough level to really help you understand why your dog only performs when there's a cookie present, right? Good trainers a get them off of the cookies for the long term, once they know the skills, or minimize it at least, and are able and skillful enough to use other types of reinforcers that may be much more valuable for your pet. Yep.
Chrissy 49:59
Can you think of a case in particular that our audience might find helpful to hear about?
Ariel 50:05
Sure? I mean, one example that I can present of a kind of hidden medical condition that presented as a behavioral problem is I had a I think he was eight year old German shepherd that the parents had just had a baby, a human baby, and this dog had always been a food guarder, but it was not a a non issue, because they just managed it that he ate alone and but the human baby came along, and then all of a sudden, the dog was suddenly guarding its bones, which it had never done before, and guarding you previously had only guarded from the other dog in the house, and now it was guarding its food bowls from people. It was guarding its water bowls from people, right? And because of the timing, of course, they assumed that it was stress having to do with the baby, and that, of course, was very disconcerting to them. Anyone who's had a baby knows that those first few months after you have a baby, you can't possibly think straight about anything, right? So that makes that makes it much more stressful. And so I come in, I do an evaluation, On physical exam, there were some signs that maybe something would be going on that wasn't just a healthy food guard or getting worse with a baby, which can happen Absolutely. I mean, that can be a thing. And we do lab work, and sure enough, this dog had a hormonal condition that presented as increased thirst and hunger. And so the food guarding that was a real food guarding, all of a sudden, now expanded to more people, more things, and the water bowl as well, because the dog was thirstier, right? The dog was hungrier. You treat the underlying hormonal condition, oops. And the behavior now, you know, resorts back to the kind of base level food gardening that that dog had had, which was super manageable. So it was a surprise to me too, but it was a really great learning experience for me. It was relatively early on in my practice for why it's so important for a veterinarian to get in there and evaluate things, because certainly the external clinical signs were subtle enough, and the parents were distracted enough with a new baby that even if they had been monitoring more closely, they may or may not have noticed but they weren't able to monitor that closely at that moment in their lives to really see that the dog was drinking a lot more was subtle enough, right? And so it was just really reinforcing for me as to why a veterinarian needs to be in there, and not only, you know, the trainer, right? So I'm just curious about that hormonal aspect.
Chrissy 52:42
So what, what testing did you do? And then what, what did you do to help with the hormones?
Ariel 52:47
Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, we initially just did a basic screening panel, kind of the the standard screening panel that we would do, and there were some markers on there that were consistent with the hormonal condition, but it wasn't that hormonal condition needed in its own separate test in order to diagnose it. And so we then went on the, you know, the clinical signs could have been consistent, the physical exam signs were consistent, the blood work signs were consistent. They weren't screaming, but they were consistent. And so then we went on to do the confirmatory test. The confirmatory test proved it, and then we got the pet on their medication, and they continued management with their primary care veterinarian, actually, because it's a very common hormonal condition, and so we just got it treated and moved on with our lives. Yeah, yeah. Nobody thinks. I mean, we haven't even figured out hormones and humans like so sure. I mean, getting to the hormones and dogs, that's something that nobody really ever thinks about, absolutely, absolutely. And I mean, you know, I've certainly had cases. We don't see that many intact animals anymore, most of them are spayed and neutered, but I've certainly had, you know, cycle related issues with intact females before that presented as behavior problems. And I think that there's a huge area of research that could be explored to figure out the interaction between behavior problems and hormonal conditions or hormonal states even, yeah, that the research just hasn't done yet.
Speaker 2 54:17
No,
Chrissy 54:17
No, no. I mean, you even have the dogs that have, you know, the the fake pregnancies, you know, like the the pseudo, I mean, it's physically, they're presenting like they're pregnant, but they aren't, y
Ariel 54:31
ep, yep, and it's just like a misfire, basically, of their cycling, yeah, yeah. It's crazy.
Chrissy 54:37
So is there anything that's weighing on your mind, or any negative wisdom that you would like to share with our audience?
Ariel 54:43
Well, I suppose, if you're dealing with a animal that has a behavior problem, I would encourage you to go seek out a veterinary behaviorist. Or if you don't have one in your area, have your veterinarian do a tele consult with one so that you can get expertise on this situation, and maybe it's not, maybe there isn't anything medical, but knowing that's pretty important for you to have success, it's kind of shooting yourself in the foot if you're trying to treat something and not addressing this huge internal piece that could be influencing and so I strongly encourage even with kind of simpler or earlier or milder problems, there still can be stuff that can affect it, that can hugely affect the trajectory, even of a behavior problem developing. So get in and get in early, because the earlier we're able to intervene, the earlier, you know, the bigger of an impact we can have. And certainly the longer we wait, then the more practice a pet has, and kind of using these alternative coping strategies that we as humans may not appreciate in our society, but may be functional for them, and they the more practice they get with those, then the harder it is to teach against it. And so get in and get in early would be kind of the biggest thing,
Chrissy 56:01
perfect, any nuggets of wisdom for trainers or behaviorists.
Ariel 56:07
Sure. I mean, I think that partnering, there are lots of veterinary behaviors that will partner, and I know it can feel scary to refer cases over to a veterinary behaviorist and feel like you're going to lose the case. But the reality is, is that most veterinary behaviors don't have super skilled trainers on staff, just because of you know where they live or how their practice model is, and so they really need to partner with you, and we make a great effort to develop those relationships with local trainers. And if you are, if you are skilled and you aren't making progress the way you feel like you should be, or something feels different, or we're just hitting up against Wall after wall after wall, barrier after barrier after barrier. Those are cases to send over. I mean, you know, in the perfect world, with this dog living in a different household, or if they lived with a trainer who could be working the dog, 24/7 then sure, maybe the pet may not need psychiatry, psychiatric intervention. But that's not the reality of most pets, right? Like the they live with, the people they live with, and they the people love them. And you know, this is their home, and the this is the lot they were dealt with in life, and the, you know, capacity to re home any of these guys is limited to non existent. And so let's deal with what we've got in front of us. And if we're not making headway, let's reach for more tools. We've got more tools, as long as we're using them responsibly. Why shouldn't we be using
Chrissy 57:41
Yeah, okay. And then how can people get a hold of you if they want to chat with you or make an appointment with you?
Ariel 57:48
Oh, sure. The website is www dot vet behavior center.com, spelled the American way, not the English.And we have a ton of information up there on our website. You can reach out to us through there. We you can also text us or call us. 303-536-1802, my front desk team is great about answering questions and kind of, you know, sending people packets of information and all that. And so just don't hesitate to reach out. And we've got lots of different ways to help folks, whether they're in the area or not, whether they're working with a veterinarian or not, if they just want to see our behavior therapy technicians, they can, and so we try and make the knowledge as accessible as possible. O
Chrissy 58:34
kay, awesome. All right. Well, thank you so much for being on and I really appreciate your knowledge and your time.
Ariel 58:41
Oh, you're welcome. Thanks for having me. Chrissy,
Chrissy 58:44
Thank you for joining us today. I hope you discovered a valuable nugget you can implement right away with your dog. If you enjoyed the episode, please follow, rate and share with fellow dog lovers who might benefit. Don't forget to take our How well do you know your dog quiz? You'll find the link in the show notes until next week. Happy tales you.
