Chrissy 0:00
Welcome to The Dogs of our lives. Podcast with me. Chrissy Messick, this is where traditional training transforms into true connection and understanding with our dogs. As a certified dog trainer, behavior consultant and interspecies communicator with a background in high level sports medicine, I bring a unique functional approach to understanding our dogs by integrating body, mind, heart and soul, join us for insights, stories and practical wisdom that will help you prevent problems before they start and build a deeper bond with your animal companion. Before we get into today's episode, let me ask you a question, how well do you actually know your dog? Why not take my quiz to find out? You can find the link in the show notes. Now let's dig in. Today. Andrew Hale is back on our podcast to talk about a sensitive subject, something that anyone who has a dog in their lives can relate to, and that is their dog Crossing Over the Rainbow Bridge, transitioning, leaving their physical body passing away, however you want to say it. Andrew just lost his friend and companion, Arthur, about six weeks ago now, and he's coming on here to discuss his grieving process, as well as so many other areas related to this topic. I so appreciate his willingness to do this and his vulnerability, I think and hope it will help so many people who have gone through this process, those who are going through this process and those who are anticipating this process, please share with anyone you know who might benefit from hearing this, talking about it and processing it is such an important part of the healing journey. Andy, thanks so much for coming on today. It's so good to have you back.
Andy 1:38
Well, thanks for having me. Chrissy, good to see you again. Yeah. So
Chrissy 1:41
we had you in season one talking about emotions of dogs and humans, but today is very special. You know, you're coming on to talk about your emotional process with Arthur passing. So I'm very thankful that you were doing this, and I think it's going to help so many people. After 14 years, you recently said goodbye to your friend and companion, Arthur, and at least his physical presence, his physical body. And like I said, you just so gracious. Graciously offered to come back and be on our podcast to share this process. Hopefully we'll help some other people do some healing around losing their animal companions. So once again, just thank you for doing this and being willing to be open and talking about this, because I'm pretty sure it's still a sensitive time for
Andy 2:30
you. Yeah, it's only been, it's only been a few weeks, actually, and I know you reached out because you'd read a couple of my posts that I shared about him in the process. I find that quite cathartic, actually, just because we feel things, we feel a lot of things, and I know we're going to talk about a few things today, about some of the things I wrote, but yeah, so this is kind of in his memory. Really. It's part of his legacy. Anyway, he's got a great legacy, I can tell you, because he's he had a big presence and and I've got some stories I can share with you and about him, which we can talk about him as well, because it'd be nice just to kind of share his memory. But I think it's important these things, you know, I think, I think death and dying and grief, there's, there's a lot of taboo still there, if you want, for want of a better word, there's still things that people feel it's hard to talk about. So hopefully this isn't meant as a kind of a, kind of an in depth thing on grief or anything, I think, you know, just share a little bit about kind of experience with Arthur. We can talk about things a bit more widely, of course, but, but everything is valid and everything's okay. We all have our own way of dealing with these things, of course. But, but, yes, it's only been a few weeks.
Chrissy 3:35
Yeah. So can you tell us a little bit about Arthur and what he meant to you and how you guys helped each other? Yeah,
Andy 3:41
so Milo was my dog before. So Arthur was a colleague. Well, he was probably actually Springer colleague, but nobody ever told him. And Milo was my colleague that I'd had. And when I had my my breakdown, I had a big breakdown in my 30s and and coming out of that breakdown, that's when I started to get her to start thinking about doing dog training and doing other things. And that's a different story about but I said, Milo, I was looking for a dog that I could really kind of have as my own and work with. And Milo, he was three years old when I met him, and he was going to be euthanized at the shelter. So we both really helped each other. Milo and I, we had a great connection. He was my soul dog, in that sense, because just what we went through, and I think when you have a single dog on their own, it's quite an intense time. So anyway, so So Milo was there, and some three or four years after, Milo would come and I got my my training qualifications, and I started doing behavioral work, I went to see a farmer with his dogs. And this, this farm is now called nice farmer. This is my late mother's way of describing this, this situation. This is way before I met my husband. Oh, come on, Jane. So I went to help with this farm, and that was fine. And then six months afterwards, I got a phone call from that farmer, saying, The farm next to me. So that's now called nasty farmer, as much as my mother used to call him. And. And Arthur had shown the other farm that he wasn't going to be fit for work, even as a young pup. He's only five months, six months, so he was going to be well gotten rid of, shall we say. And the nice farmers, little daughter had fallen in love with with Arthur, and she was the one who named him, actually, because she there's a TV show over here called Merlin, yeah, with the whole King Arthur kind of myths. And so she, she named him Arthur. And this, so if I said, looking at He looks just like your other dog, I was thinking about your other dog, because Arthur was just like, look just like Milo. And so that's how it all happened. And I and he said, Look, do you know anybody that wants this dog? And I was thinking, well, maybe, maybe I could have another dog. So, and there's me thinking on new stuff. And I remember going over Chrissy, and it was absolutely pouring down the rain. It was like thunder and everything else. And I've gone to pick him up, and I thought, you know, I'll pop him in the back with Milo and young Collie and older colleague. They'll be by time I got round to the front of the car in the pouring rain, he jumped over into the front of the car, and I kept putting him in the boot, and he kept jumping over. So I thought, right, you can stay there with us, with me. Anyway, I drove home. He threw it all over me. It was a real baptism, fire hour relationship. And that was that kind of set the scene, really, for that first guy, 18 months, I think, because he was hard work, Chris. He'd only ever known a barn. Suddenly he comes. He loved my mother as soon as he met her. So there was a bomb there. And of course, Milo, by that point, had been this wonderfully grounded dog. Now, Milo. When I first met Milo, he was struggling, but he was like this great kind of Big Brother figure to Arthur. So that was the connection, and that was Arthur news, hard work. And I talked, I gave a talk recently on kind of caregiver burden, caregiver burnout. And I really, I was talking about Arthur with them, because at the beginning part of his life with me, he with me, he was hard work. And I think for us trainers, we feel it, don't we? We feel it. We think, Oh, God, I'm supposed to I'm doing here. And actually it was my late mother who said to me, stop trying to fix him. And that was really resonated with me and in my brain at the time. So, so that's how that was our relationship. It it was forged in fire when I met my husband, what was in so my mother, my mother sadly passed away, and then I met my husband, I met Kieran about two months after my mother had passed. So sadly, my two great loves never got chance to meet each other. But Arthur was about three then, and he was still in those early months and years, he struggled with everything, like people, dogs, cars, anything, joggers, cyclists. You know, he'd started to settle down a little bit, but he'd never had anybody else in the house, other than my myself and my mother. And interestingly, you know, mother left one day and never came home for him. And this is quite heartbreaking, because I used to come in the house and I let the dogs off, take the harnesses off and stuff, and then, and then leg it down to my mother, who was sat in a chair with a little treat tin next to her for months after my mother asked he'd run down the to the to the front room and she wasn't there. He didn't have chance to process it. We'll come on to that in a minute, because it's a big thing for when he left us. I wanted to make sure that the other dogs were able to process that, but so when Kieran came along, then he was like, Well, I don't know you, what you doing in my house? And he really didn't like him for a bit. And I remember one of our first kind of date nights, if you like, around my place. We were sat on this big, long sofa. I was one end with Arthur sat next to me. Kieran was at the other end, and Arthur was just like, showing those kind of Collie teeth every time you talk to me, or whatever, but they came to love each other. And so I hope that's given me a bit of a flavor, rather. And as the years went on, he mellowed with life. Everything had to be on his terms, which is, which is absolutely fine. Kieran won him over. You know, he decided, you can be my dad, that's all right. We'll be all right. And they became best friends and it was interesting. When Milo passed, something changed in Arthur, he changed. He was bereft. He grieved deeply, and we made a point of saying goodbye to Milo at home. And Arthur spent time with Milo, with the body and things and but, but then he kind of changed. It changed not in a good or a bad way. He just changed. It was almost like a maturing for him, because his his big brother wasn't there, so that was Arthur. And then in the latter years, he had a little health problem. It's called blessing, because, you know, he had what we think was a brain tumor. That's what potentially was the end for him. But he had spondylosis, he had arthritis, he had heart murmurs, but it didn't stop him, because he was such a determined dog. It's a really good word for him, determined. I think, Well,
Chrissy 9:24
I appreciate that. Kiernan, he was all in like, he was like, I don't care how long it takes, I'm going to befriend Arthur. And I appreciate that. Like that, having people in your life that are willing to just take the time to for the dogs to become friends with you. That's, that's super important, and that tells you a lot about that person. Well, yeah, because
Andy 9:48
Kieran, one of the first things he said to me was when we met, was, Do you like Dolly Parton, because she's a big part of his life. And I said, Well, I said, Well, I mean, I was a bit indifferent to Dolly. Then, to be fair, um. I've come to love her, of course. And my question too was, do you get on with dogs? And it's all good. I love dogs. And you know, you and I, we learn all this stuff, don't we, about dogs, and on this journey of understanding more about emotions, and Kieran just got it from day one. And I think that because of the work he does, you know, he's a he's a nurse, he's he does end of life nursing, at the moment, is moving on to oncology and palliative soon. I think that takes a certain types of certain types of soul, really, to have that. So he was, you know, he just did everything right with Arthur. I didn't have to tell him anything, really. He's like, Okay, I'll wait till he's ready him. And Arthur was like, yeah, it just happened one day. I remember getting a photo from Kieran, who'd took the dogs out, and we live on a wonderful beach here, and he'd kind of managed to let the dogs off for a minute his first time that he could. And he thought, well, go to the dogs off. I can take a picture on the walks. Especially, I think that was when they started to kind of make that connection. But if he'd have put pressure on Arthur, that would have been enough, as we know, once that dog has decided you're in the negative camp, it's a tricky one to get out of that thing, but that proved to be the kind of person here and isn't that's why I lowered him, right? Yeah.
Chrissy 11:08
So will you talk a little bit about grief and relief? You did that post, which I think you actually shared that with one of my clients, because she's in the middle of it right now, and you know, it's been hard for her, and so she really appreciated what you said, and I think it makes a lot of sense. I mean, same with one of our dogs, you know, she was struggling medically, and it was a lot of work to take care of her. And so when the time does come for the passing, it's sadness, but it's also a little bit of relief, which I felt a little bit guilty about, but I it seems like a normal thing to me. Can you just share a little bit about, I guess what you talked about in the post, and that it's okay to have grief and relief. That's
Andy 11:54
why I wanted to write the post, really, because I remember when my when my late father died, that's one area that my mother said she struggled with a lot was the relief that came because my father had been poorly for a long time, and she worried about him. And, you know, there's a lot of you know, when we think about anticipatory grief and what that does for us and and relief is one of those taboos. A lot of people feel bad about it, feel guilty about it, and it's just really common. And one thing to bear in mind is, I'm a great believer that all emotions are okay. All emotions are valid. It's, it's our relationship with those emotions, and we have to sit with them, and we have to understand them. And I think with with Arthur, you know, because of his health issues, and also he was, he was such a vulnerable soul. It was the moment I met him. We had a deep, deep friendship. He was my friend and I, and I worried about him a lot. And, you know, when we used to go on holiday and we'd stay with our friends who he adored, which is fine, but you just worry about them. And also, we know that we're all the biggest part of living is, is the dying, because it's it's part of it, you know. So we're all going to have an end. Part of the challenge, really, is not knowing what that end will look like. So when we made a decision with our vet friend that we do, it was time. There was a relief there. There's a relief. Because once it happened, because I knew his end, now, because the brain tumor, who's having these horrendous fits, you think to yourself, What kind of end is he going to have? When will it happen? Will I be there? So I knew his end. So there was a relief there. There was a relief that he wasn't suffering anymore. There was a relief I didn't have to worry about him anymore. So this is the relief that we get, and it's palpable. Chrissy, I think I'm hoping that people listening in many will relate to that. And I think, yeah, I felt that myself, that almost sense of relief that comes with the grief. And you said, and there. And I think it's a really important word, and we call it the power of and actually, that we can experience different things at the same time. You can feel very deeply at the loss of your loved one and feel relief at the same time you can do both. And I think, and is a really good way of connecting some of that to take away some of that feeling of guilt. And guilt really is just a sense of us trying to make sense of a deep feeling of something, and we have to just sit with that and recognize, yeah, I, I felt something very deep and very visceral in this process. But there's many things that come, of course, with with grief, and grief isn't just, isn't just about the loss of somebody through death. Of course, you know, grief is about loss. And you know, I work a lot with with clients who they're grieving because they have they don't have the dogs they wanted to have or they thought they were going to have. There isn't grief there. So, yeah, relief, I think it's an important one to recognize.
Chrissy 14:50
So I believe the end of life transition is just as secret as birth. And if you don't mind sharing, did you have a special ceremony for Arthur in his transition?
Andy 14:59
Ceremony, really. We planned it out. We had that kind of luxury, really, and we wanted him to be in his safe place. So it was his favorite room. We made as many preparations as possible. We had his favorite blankets, and when he went, he went away, he slipped away, and we were able to be in that space with him. Then we were able to let the other two dogs through, Molly and Harley, able to come through, and then we gave them time to do whatever they need to process. We were able to wrap him up in his in his favorite blankets, and take him to his place of rest, and he looks so peaceful. So if that's the ceremony, I guess that's what we did for us. So, you know, everybody has their own things that are important to them, I guess in that process,
Chrissy 15:45
yeah, I would definitely call that a ceremony. It sounded like it was very peaceful, yeah.
Andy 15:49
So I think it was the right time. I think that's the thing for us.
Chrissy 15:54
And so everyone grieves differently. And like you said before, not one way is the right way. Everybody just has their own different way of grieving and going through that process. So if you don't mind sharing, what has the grieving process been like for you?
Andy 16:09
It's been tricky. Do you know grief? I learned a bit about grief, actually, even from just observing the dogs. I did a post on this as well, actually, because it was interesting for me, Harley, who's our middle aged dog, if you like, between three we had Arthur, Who's the oldest Harley, and then Molly, Who's the youngest Harley. And Arthur were good friends. They've been together for like, 10 years. And again, when when Harley came, Arthur was like, Oh, I don't know about you, that was just typical Arthur. But then he decided, one day, yeah, I think we'll be all right. And then, and then he was a great friend to Harley, because when Harley came to us, he was 10 or 11 months, hardly came to us. He had his own challenges, and Arthur really helped him with that. And they and Harley's always been quite socially, even miserable dog to be a bit grumpy socially. In as far as he doesn't do social stuff, much so reluctant socially. Whereas with Arthur, they created a genuine bond, and Arthur was the end dog. I never saw Harley play with. So when they came in the room, Harley and Molly, Molly never had that close relationship with Arthur, because Molly's all about Harley. But Harley pre Arthur's passing, was a reluctant brother to her, you know? And he was like, Oh God, just go away. I can't do so when they came in the space, Harley, they both came in because they're two Labradors, and they were like, yeah, for the beans full of beans. And then Harley just stopped, you know, before anything else, he kind of sensed the presence in that room. It's really bizarre, and it's hard to explain, but he just changed. He just changed from being busy to being very still. And he's a Labrador, so he's always busy, right? He just stopped very still, and then he he kind of circled the Arthur's body a few times, and then, and then lay with him. We laid with him for about 10 minutes, 15 minutes just, just literally lay with him. And you'd have to know my dog to know how unusual that would be for him, just to be in that place. Molly left the room. Interestingly, Bjorn and I were obviously quite emotional, and Molly was just more about seeking us out and being a comforter. So I mentioned this only because Holly was very, very bereft. You could see in him just, you could just know it. But from that moment on, he started to seek Molly out. And this is another aspect of grief that just hit me, really, this thing about the loss of a of a secure attachment, of a social attachment, there is something else that pushes us to find social connections elsewhere, social comfort, and that's what Harley's done with Molly. Little things like normally when we'd open the car door, for example, it'll run off, you know, down the beach or whatever, or over the hills or whatever is they're doing. If Harley got out first, he'd stop and wait for Molly. He'd never done that before. So that reminded me about the importance of seeking some of these connections and and also the depth of what those social connections meant through loss so Arthur, you know he'd seen my mother, my own husband had never seen my mother. You know he transcends time for me and connections and I went through a period of about 10 days, two weeks, starting to look at rescue Collies. I can totally see why people then feel I've got to go and find another dog, because I felt it myself. Because, as I say, something I learned through that thing was about the need for to refind secure attachment again, right? And of course, none of those dogs could ever be Arthur because that that relation was 14 years in the making, right? And it was, and it was unique, but, and even talking about that, a lot of people might not feel they can, because they might think it's the fear of judgment of others, but I just wanted to share that because I because it's true and and I realize now that I was going through something there, and I think this is that kind of almost that denial phase of people talk about that kind of wanting to. Change that outcome to somehow revisit that relationship again. So that was interesting for me. I've kind of moved through that now. I miss him terribly, but I know that I will never have that relationship again with another dog. Yeah, I think that's another part of the how it hits home and again, we can use the and again, because I love Polly and Molly deeply, and I miss the special connection I had with Arthur. I can do we can do both. Yeah,
Chrissy 20:28
I remember with our boxers that we had, you know, they passed, one was 11 and one was 13, and then when the build the the older one passed last. Last it took. It took us two years to be ready to get another dog, and and I wasn't even, I wasn't even ready. My husband and daughter was like, let's, let's get another dog. And so instead, we fostered for two years. We just took care of dogs and fostered because I knew I was not gonna I was like, There's no way I'm having another dog right now, and it's too painful to lose them. So we fostered for two years, and then finally they're like, one of our fosters, my daughter especially, she's like, can we keep ginger? He said, Fine. And so it took me a while to kind of let my walk down to, you know, to be vulnerable. But now, now she's our dog. And anyway, I'm getting all emotional, but so Yeah, everybody's on their different timeline as far as, like, the grieving process and wins it right to get, you know, the time to get another dog. And so everybody has their own way of going through that.
Andy 21:45
Yeah, for sure. And I think I remember back when I was younger, and my father never wanted to have a dog ever. And when we got one, he loved them so much that when they went, he just, he didn't want another one ever, you know, cycle, until mom brought the next one back, and then he fell in love with him. And so I can totally see how some people, some people go out, and they get out of the dog quite quickly. Other people, it could be a long time, if ever actually, because of because of that the trauma is it, it cuts deep, and often, a lot of the feelings we have around that loss are projections of other things on top of the deep relationship we have with the dog. You know, when Milo asked, I realized that was just as much about me grieving for my mother that I didn't really have chance to grieve for her properly, really, to brought through a lot of feelings and thoughts and and everything's okay. I think, you know, if somebody goes out and gets another dog very quickly that that's okay, if that's right for them, I think the challenges come if we try and project onto this new dog an expectation that they will be the same, right? I remember working with with somebody going back a while, who lost their golden retriever, very much the kind of soul dog they ran out and got another one who wasn't the other one. And in fact, the new one had a lot of different support needs, and I had to really help her to move through some of that, because there was an element of resentment of the new dog, yeah, because they weren't the dog before. But that's really unfair on that dog. That's the risk that we have to be mindful of. But many of us, you know, we find our first truly secure attachment through a companion animal, actually, and so that's another element of that deep loss that we feel. And I think if you're looking for that, for a certain dog who can help fulfill a lot of your own social safety needs, then that's a good thing. I think that's fine if we're able to accept the dog that comes through the door. Yeah, we have ended up always having, we've had multiple dogs, and I think it takes the edge off a little bit. This isn't too trivid, you know, it's sort of losing a dog, that you have a dog, no other dogs, there's no dog, and then you have to come home and everything changes, and that routine changes. And there's just a lot. There's just a lot. Same for humans, of course. And so it's challenging, isn't it? Even with Arthur, this is the thing, again, things, things aren't necessarily better or worse Christine, they're just different. Yeah, there are areas that are frankly easier. The Arthur's not here because he was an old dog, and so we made adjustments for him. Now we don't have to. Yeah, he wasn't great traveling in the car. He could maybe manage an hour and a half. But now, of course, we could win the car for six or six hours, go away for a few days with the other two, all these kind of things. It's just different, I think this thing, and we have to, we have to be at peace with that, otherwise we'll feel guilty about everything. Yeah, I can't possibly have joy life. But I think that's another thing with the and you know, we can grieve deeply and still find joy elsewhere, and we should allow ourselves to find joy when it presents itself. Shouldn't feel guilty about it. Yeah,
Chrissy 24:53
definitely. I think a big routine for a couple of my clients that I'm thinking of right now is they, you. It was them and their dog. You know, it's just them and their dog. And so now, you know, they would go home and their dog would be there waiting for them, and now their dog is not there. And that's a huge, massive change for them that they're literally going through and processing right now. And so that's, that's a big change right there for them.
Andy 25:19
Yeah, and I think this is the importance of having, you know, what Harley kind of taught me about him seeking out Molly's is having somebody that we could seek out ourselves, yeah, can talk to and be open with. And not everybody has that privilege. Sadly, yeah. And that's where it can get very tough. And the world was his buyer at an alarming speed, and we almost feel that we need somebody to at least sit with us, not necessarily physically, but you know, like be in our space and hear us and and see us in that process, really. And I think it's extra tough when we don't feel that, because it's it gets compounded by the element of loneliness. Then I think, yeah,
Chrissy 26:00
having that social support system is so important have someone in that space with you. So do you think there's a difference between losing a human companion versus, you know, an animal companion or a non human companion, or do you feel like it's just the the type of attachment they might have with the human or the animal? I think it's a tricky
Andy 26:21
one. I think it's not, it's not necessarily good to compare anything, really. I remember going to see a client once see their dog, and the hamster had passed that morning, and we had to just delay started to work with the dog while I was a participant in the ceremony in the garden for the little girl at the passing of her hamster, and she was very deeply, deeply bereft at losing her little friend. So that was important to her. It was deep to her, and I would never want to compare anything to that. I do see people's posts when they feel their their animal is like their child. We've had a family member who has lost a child. It's not something we can compare, and we don't have to recognize the depth of loss for that individual. You know, we call our dogs our kids, but I don't have a child, and I'm definitely I'm not a somebody who has carried a new life. So it's all different, but everything's okay. I definitely saw Arthur Moore as being a very deeply connected friend who's my friend, I think, and but that's deep too. And as I say, there's a lot of different things that we have. People can lose family members, human family members, and not grieve much at all. They can lose their dog and they can't cope, yeah, and people might judge them and think, Well, hang on, you just lost your whatever, and now you're all upset about the animal, but, but that's why it's not helpful to compare. I think we just have to empathize with somebody for the loss they have, whether it's a partner of many, many years, like with my mother when my father passed, they married for 50 years, they've been together for 60 or whether that's little, whether it's that little girl who'd lost a hamster, yeah, we can see the loss in both.
Chrissy 28:07
Yeah, definitely. So I've had many people ask when they're trying to figure out when to when's the right time for their dog to pass and let their dog go. And so I'm sure there's many people listening to this right now that are probably going through this exact same situation. What would you say to them?
Andy 28:27
Personal things? I think for me, it's an understanding of we understand our own animals. We understand what the basics are for them to live a life, you know, being able to get outside and have a potter around, being able to eat, being able to toilet, you know, you know, those kind of things and being able to have a certain quality of life. For me, a lot of it is about visualizing the end and the gift that we can give to animals that we can't give to fellow humans. I wish I could have supported my mother. She asked me many times in that last six months of her life, to to, yeah, that's tough memory. And, yeah, I wish I could have gifted her a more. I think, you know, I'm trying to say this is yeah. So I think it's a personal thing. Personally, I'd seen her go a little bit earlier and and then get it later with Arthur, because of the brain potential, brain tumor. We didn't go into all the putting him through a lot of stuff too, but, you know, the vets were pretty clear that. They're pretty sure, but the the seizures these have, the kind of the kind of episodes, whatever they become, they became bigger and more violent, and I would never want my best friend, my friend to to go like that. Yeah. So we had a reprieve. We had a night where he was in a bit of distress and he didn't see Ryan, spoke to the vets and that friend, and we kind of ramped up his meds a little bit, gave him a bit of a relief. But that's what. We thought, yeah, we can have a say in the end. We can have a say in the end. Yes, it's the most self less thing we do. I think with our animals, actually, is because, you know, we don't want to let go, right? Yeah. And I think back to my mother, bless her, obviously, I couldn't finish it for her. And, in fact, I didn't want her to lose heart. And God, you know, I look back on now, and because she wasn't eating very well because of the kind of cancer she had, I'd put so much flipping compound. We have compound over there, but it's like a It's a thing that you add into food to give nutrients. I put so much compound in her porridge, you could basically stand a fork in it, because it was so thick. And then, and I look back now, and I think, wow, especially because my husband's work, I think I should have just let her enjoy things, but I was determined to save her, right? I see people almost stuck in that a little bit with our animals sometimes, and, and I get it, yeah, so I think, and also I think there is something in our animals, Arthur, that the day before he he gave me a look, which I felt I can't prove it, you know, I can't, we can't do a study on it. I can't objectify too much, but it just seemed like he'd had enough.
Chrissy 31:13
Yeah, I think many people have that experience where they just have a knowing or a feeling, okay, their dog is ready to go. So I think that's quite common, and I think that's more like the kind of the intuitive aspect, or the spiritual or soul aspect of trusting the information that's coming to us that, yeah, we can't really measure but, but it happens all the time to us. So yeah, that is a really hard question. When is the right time to me looking at the quality of life and listening to your dog and checking in with yourself and asking, am I keeping them around because I don't want them to leave, or is it just really time for them to go? So yeah, that's a hard question. I
Andy 31:56
was just gonna say this, this, I think back to the to the three promises. The first promise is, I'll take you in as you are. The second promise is, I'll always try and advocate for your safety needs. And then the third promise is, if I can, I will try and gift you a peaceful end. I think that's just, you know, we can't always do that. This is the thing, and we just can't, because stuff happens. Sometimes I get it. But if we, if we have the opportunity to to have some ownership, some control, for one about wanting a better word over what that end looks like, I think it's a bit easier. You know, say we were able to have Arthur in the space that he liked the most. We were able to plan it ahead. We were able to get things at the kind of animal cemetery place, cemetery and crematorium place. We were able to plan it all even now. Chrissy, I think we had another week or two. And yeah, we could have done but what might his end of been? You know, this is that relief bit again, because I have some relief to know. I know his end now, and it was okay. It was a peaceful end. So it's not just a gift to the dog. It can be a gift for us too, right?
Chrissy 33:11
Yeah, it's good. I see the last eight months, I've had five clients you know, that have had to say goodbye to their animal companions. And it's been all in different ways through just old age or medical emergency or behavior, euthanasia. And so many emotions come up. You know, it's all of them are hard. But what would you say are different emotions that come up in different ways for people who are processing these different types of passing. I mean, they're all such different situations, and you're dealing with different emotions, I don't know. Do you have anything to say about the different types of passing? And if there's different emotions that go with each of those,
Andy 33:52
well, for every person that experiences the loss, there will be a different set of emotions. I think this is the this is the thing to understand. And a lot of the time we get stuck because of things that we feel we could have done differently, or we could have changed things differently. And there's a saying, isn't there that we should try and focus on the on the quality of the life, not the not the means of the passing. It is challenging. I think they all present different challenges. Of course, I think when you have a dog who's elderly and a bit more infirm, there seems to be, I think, potentially, more of a natural flow to that. I think when you have a dog who's younger, I think you think about behavioral euthanasia when you think there's extra challenges there, but the biggest issue often is just the lack of opportunity to communicate those feelings in safety, even within the dynamics of families. You know, when my father passed away, somebody gave me a really important piece of advice that stuck with me, and it was, it was the best advice I could have had, and that was not to be strong for my mother, because. I would have been, I'd have been not going to be strong mom and, you know, good look after but she needed me to be her son. She needed to be my mom. She needed me to show my grief. And I think that's important thing. Within family dynamics, we tend to not say anything. Well, I can't say it because it might upset you, but that's we're supposed to be upset. We're supposed to cry, we're supposed to get angry. We were supposed to go through these things. And if we see grief as being part of it, being that push towards seeking supportive network within our social network as well, we have to allow that process to happen. And actually that we can often find that easier with a counselor, a therapist, or a friend or somebody on the other side of the world on a zoom call, and we come with the people in the room, but it's okay to feel these things, but, but the hard bit is when we're not able to communicate them,
Chrissy 35:48
I think. And you talked a little bit about regret, what we could have done, what we should have done, you know, what they did or didn't do for their dog, the way, you know the transition happened. What would you say to someone having regrets about it? I
Andy 36:02
think we have to sit with our emotions more than we often allow ourselves to, especially the uncomfortable ones. And we have to change our relationship with them little bit. I think because when we think about guilt especially, and you know the notion of regrets, you know, these are all about the past, and we get chained to the past. If we get stuck in that kind of mindset with these things, I think we have to learn. We have to think, Okay, this feels very uncomfortable. Why? Because this is meant to be uncomfortable. You know, this was a tragic outcome. This was something that, you know, maybe, if something happened, God knows when ago, it might have been a different outcome. I think it's just, it's just sitting with those things and and understanding that, you know, it's the heart that is important we have, the three C's that we talk about in kind of therapies, which is control change, in choice. We want to control kind of the world around us, to be safe for us, our own safe world view, if you like. And things come along that that affect, that that we can't control. And and loss is one of them, of course. And then we get stuck in change. We want to change something, if only I'd done this, if only I'd done that. You know, we get stuck in change, remembering about choice. We do have a choice about the things that we focus in on, the things that we think about moving forward, about how we change our relationship with some of those feelings, and that gives us control again. And it is about talking about these things. You know, I think having supported many clients through different things. I'm sure you have to. I think some of the behavioral euthanasias can be, can be particularly tough, you know, when you have a physically healthy dog, potentially, but but who is emotionally in pain, that can be hard to reconcile, I think, and that's where we have to talk about these things. And it's going to hurt. It's supposed to hurt, but we have to also have those safe spaces to talk through these things, because none of these decisions are ever made likely and there will be reasoning behind them, and I think that there has to be more support for people to go through things. Why kind of bereavement counseling is so important to be able to have a safe space to kind of go through and navigate those feelings and emotions, and I say it's about not about dismissing them. It's just about changing our relationship with them and and understanding the tragedy in it. We also recognize that there can be many welfare implications for dogs who are kept in a time in a life of sufferance, physical pain, of course, but emotional pain, too. Some of the sanctuary style shelters, the ones that are run well, the dogs have a good life. The ones that aren't, the dogs are just kept in a state of permanent pain and distress, physically, emotionally. Is that a life? And remember we can one thing to recognize is there are no welfare implications once we've said goodbye. In fact, the welfare implications are more about us, really at that point. So I think we need to think about this more. I think behavioral euthanasia, especially, we need to talk about it more. We need to talk about it more. And I know some people think, well, you know, there would be a home for that dog somewhere that could deal with those things. I'm sure there is. But where is that home? Where is it? Yeah, you know, where are these outcomes? Sometimes it's just very challenging, and without talking about it like we are now, that just adds even more to the distress and the regret and the guilt because of the judgments that people assume are out there. They assume because they're not always, you know, the vast majority of people are very sympathetic. And you know, Kieran husband, they had a patient to the place where he won't go back along, where they had an elder lady come in, and she had her elderly dog. Euthanized on her bed in the hospice only because she couldn't bear to think about her dog suffering without her bear in mind was an elderly dog, a dog with very a lot of medical needs. They were very bonded. And interestingly, the dog was euthanized in the morning. She passed an afternoon. I feel me and everybody will have their judgment on it. I think that's a beautiful story. Oh, yeah, I think there's something beautiful about that story. And I think a lot of it also depends on on your belief systems and your value systems, I think, but also your belief systems about what comes next. Yeah, you know, I think, I think about Arthur, and I think of him running through some celestial field with Milo again, and that's how I'm at peace and I and I feel his presence still right. And actually, that week, the week after he passed, he had things that he did, and I felt him doing them. I felt his presence in the mornings. He because the Labradors are pretty lazy right in the mornings, like you're staying there. But he'd be like, we already know and I felt his nose, cold nose on my hand. That could be my nervous system, recreating stuff he knows. But the reality is, it brought me comfort so and this is the thing you know again, at the hospice where Kieran works. My God, you know it's interesting, because virtually all the nurses, many of them started off cynical about anything other than and by working in that environment, they're all convinced of it. They've seen the evidence of stuff. There's so much stuff that happens in that environment that it's just so universal. And the presence and the things that happen there, and they say to everybody you know, to relatives after the person's past. If you feel a connection through something, take it because we've seen it happen too often. Yeah, you to dismiss it as just being silly.
Chrissy 41:50
Yeah, yeah. And that was my next question. You know, now that Arthur has left the physical world, do you still feel him and connect with him in a different way, a more, I guess, spiritual soul aspect, and that's exactly what you were talking about. There's little signs or feelings that he's there sometimes.
Andy 42:09
Yeah, you know that it was very intense that first week we saw so many things were out and so many things happened, and that we just took comfort in them. I think a lot of this is about mindset as well. Chrissy, about Arthur, was not mine. I and I'm not a believer in ownership, in that sense, he wasn't mine. You didn't come knocking on the door one day. And you know, whatever you know, it just happened that the universe gifted me the chance to bear witness to him. Equally, his passing wasn't mine, it was his. And I think if we're going to take responsibility for another living, sentient being I would do with our companion animals, we have to recognize that as an end is likely my grief, my feelings, my depth of sorrow, at times, are mine. They're mine. It's a cliche, I know, but the depth of that is this the signal of the love I had for him and the impact he had on me? I was a temporary custodian to him in this weird universe as we're flying through it on this planet, and I feel I can't engage in a relationship unless I'm prepared for that loss, as I say that he was not mine. He was not mine to have his. His passing was not mine. It was his this. This is mine that I have to process and and work through. But yeah, you know, I feel him. I still fit me in mind. Oh, my God, he's he's with us all the time. So many bizarre things happen, and I feel my mother's presence. I think my mother picked my husband for me, actually, I think she was always, always trying to kind of fix me up with somebody when she was alive. I would never really have engaged in a relationship, especially in the final years, because I was caring for her, knowing the kind of person that she would have wanted me to be with. Oh, that's my husband. So I like to think that she was like, Yeah, I'll find somebody to take over from me. It's a lot of it's how we want to perceive the world. I think Chrissy when it comes to these things and and sadly, this is why they say to the hospice. I think sadly, a lot of people dismiss stuff, yeah, because it's silly. Or, you know, it's just me, you know, seeing things or feeling things. But I think if you just go with it, nothing silly really brings you comfort. Yeah,
Chrissy 44:21
now I've done a couple readings, intuitive in our species, communication readings with a quote, couple of clients whose dogs have passed away, and the information that comes through is like, you can't deny, you know, you can't deny the information when I knew nothing about about their life before, and then, you know, the information comes through. And you know, you just can't really deny it. So yeah, I definitely do think it kind of depends on what your viewpoints are, and your mindset, what you believe in, in that kind of stuff. So yeah, it's it can be beautiful. So. Do you have any suggestions, resources or support that you would suggest to help people going through this grieving process? I know we've talked about social, social support, support for sure. And what else would you suggest? Well,
Andy 45:13
I think you know, if you feel it's a process, right? And we talk about grief, and we talk about different stages of grief, and I think that's obviously sold in a way, that somehow you have to experience them all and in a certain order. But guess what? Some people experience them. Some people don't. Some people have the one or two Jane, I think, I think that they're there to kind of give you an idea the things that you might experience. And you know, I've had a lot of loss in the last few years with my father and my mother and Milo and Martha and Bertie, another dog of ours that came. He wasn't doing this very long, but and I experienced it more differently. So even as a human being, I experience different things because it's complicated. And I think, you know, if we can allow ourselves to kind of go through whatever we need to do, and the big thing for me is allowing ourselves to feel stuff, even the uncomfortable stuff. It's it's there to be telling us something, and it's about that. But if we get stuck in that process, then bereavement counseling is a really helpful thing. You know, I had a session with a I have a therapist. Anyway, I see it as a form of supervision for my work. You know, I need somewhere to offload to. And she's not a dog trainer, but she could be. She could be a dog trainer, because I've been with her for years, but that was really helpful for me to have a space where you can just talk and not necessarily be given solutions, because it's not to be fixed necessarily, but a good grieving counselor can can help you navigate through and move forwards a little bit. It's not it's not about moving on, but we have to find a way to move forwards. We have to find a way to move forwards. And this is something I've learned from Harley as well, just seeing him work through his own grief, because he's very palpable that first week with him, you could see it in his face, and he's found a different way of functioning. And I think that's what we do. I think I think that's what we find as we move forwards, because things change us. I know when my late father died, I think there's something for us boys, especially there, that I changed in myself as a man after my father passed, there's a changing of me in there and and, uh, and the same when my mother, and again, for us boys, you know, losing our mom, you know, she was my constant, my return to safety. So I had to find that within myself after she'd gone. So So it's these adaptions that we make, but I think reaching out for behave as well. And there's so many great services, I don't know over there, but over here in the UK, the Blue Cross do one, and they're all free. You know, the Association of into dogs, which is an international thing, they do a great free bereavement service with properly qualified people who can hear you and listen. I think that's something that we have to be brave enough to do, because it's hard sometimes, isn't it, to feel that, and I might need somebody else to kind of get involved. But yeah,
Chrissy 48:07
definitely. You know something else that I just wanted to bring up real quick is a lot of times when someone loses an animal, animal companion, people around them maybe don't know what to say or meaning, well, they'll they'll say, Well, you can get another dog or something like that. And you're just recently, what you've gone through, what has been most helpful to hear from people around you. It's
Andy 48:31
nice that people recognize that what you're going through. I think that's important and and I get it, you know, it's only a few days after, and I get tagged into posts about dogs looking for homes, and I sit with that, and I think it's only because they know that we would give that dog of an amazing home, and they see a gap in our family, maybe. So I don't I think it's important for us to recognize that other people, they probably mean well, and we shouldn't take it to heart. I think a really positive thing I find, and I try to do this with others, is when people ask me, tell me about him, Tell me about your mother, tell me about your dog. And it's interesting, because that's the one thing that people skirt around. Somehow. It's like, oh, I can't mention the dog. But I think most people who have suffered that loss are desperate to share their story with Yeah, or with that person. They're desperate to kind of let the world know that this, this dog, was incredible, yeah, you know, because of the work I do, Arthur, when he decided he was ready, because for the first five years of his life, he couldn't help me with any kind of setup work or anything, he was like, No, I'm not going to do this. And then one day, he was like, Yeah, I'll do that. And he turned into the most amazing dog. And what was lovely when I shared about his passing was, well, loads of my clients saying, Oh my God. You know, Arthur really helped my dog. My dog wouldn't be where they are today without Arthur. So that's his legacy. So I want to talk about him. I don't want to not talk about him. And actually. The often people struggle more to talk about their feelings. How you feeling? You know, share that. But if somebody says to you, tell me about him, Oh, my god, yeah, I'd love to share that with you. And my mother was the same after my father. She loved him. When people said, Well, tell me about him. Yeah, talk about her love for him, and she wanted to bear witness. So I think that's a good thing to bear in mind for all this, actually, is to say, Yeah, you know, you can always start by saying, Would you feel comfortable in telling me about
Chrissy 50:29
him? Right? Ask, yeah, and just ask if it's okay, yeah, yeah.
Andy 50:33
People would like to, that's, that's the point. I think that's, that's what I found for others. I've definitely found it for myself, and you've probably heard the difference in my tone. Even talking when I'm when I'm talking about my emotions, I'm more mindful and more, you know, slower, but when I'm talking about Arthur, I'm likely, yeah,
Chrissy 50:52
yeah. Lovely. So is there anything else that you would like to share about Arthur, or your thoughts or your process, or anything that we didn't talk about,
Andy 51:01
not really, I think, you know, we've shared a bit about Arthur today, but I think we all have our own connections, and I think it's quite helpful to understand our own associations, even when, even when our loved ones are alive. You know, why does this dog mean so much to me? What does this dog represent for me? What does this dog give to me that actually masks or cover up other frailties that I might already have? Because understanding that really helps us and definitely, once we have that loss, we understand a lot about ourselves in that loss. I think about why it was important to have these things. You know, when Milo went, Oh, my God, I it was interesting because, because I just come through therapy for my breakdown, I had a drug addiction as well. I talked about these things. I always say that I I rescued him, but he saved me, and we went to that process when he passed, it brought back a lot of stuff from that time for me, and made me realize how much he became this entity that I projected a lot of stuff on through my own healing process. And now he wasn't here, but I but I wanted to have a positive outlook of thinking, well, he he provided that when I needed it. And actually, I understand now boss is not here. I don't need that bit anymore. Reminded me that I had healed a bit. And healing, by the way, isn't about a destination. It's a process that goes on and, you know, we kind of adapt and we move forward. And there's a great saying, which is trauma is living. The fact that we're all here today shows we've survived another day, and even a reframing around resilience now, which is looking at it more in regards to if something happens to me today, who will I be tomorrow? And I think grief, especially with grief at the loss of a secure attachment a loved one, really helps us to think about who am I today? And it's about not only changing our relationship with those feelings, but befriending our new self. Yeah,
Chrissy 52:59
so if people want to connect with you, what's the best way to do that?
Andy 53:03
Yeah, my dog center care platform, I think that's a space there. And we've had a few discussions, actually, with grief and bereavement experts in dog center care. They're on the YouTube channel, yeah, so dog center care, you can find me on Facebook, and also dog center care on YouTube. Okay, perfect.
Chrissy 53:20
Well, thank you for coming on today and just being vulnerable and sharing, telling us about Arthur. Thanks for having me. Christy, thank you. Thank you for joining us today. I hope you discovered a valuable nugget you can implement right away with your dog. If you enjoyed the episode, please follow, rate and share with fellow dog lovers who might benefit. Don't forget to take our How well do you know your dog quiz? You'll find the link in the show notes until next week. Happy tales. You.
